The Tuur® Sleep Podcast

In bed with experts about sleep in real life

Sleep affects everything. How you feel, how you perform, and how you recover. In the Tuur® Podcast, we talk with experts who know sleep from the inside out.
People who work every day with the human body, the brain, and our nightly rest. 

In In bed with… we take the time to look deeper than tips and trends.
We speak openly about what truly influences sleep quality: from mental calm and habits to physical support and recovery.
No quick fixes, but insights that help you better understand what your sleep really needs. 

Each episode offers well-founded knowledge, relatable situations, and practical insights; to help you sleep more consciously, night after night.

The podcast is currently available only in Dutch. You can read the full transcript below.

There’s little that has such a big impact as sleeping poorly. We feel drained. We’re irritable. But fortunately, there are also many solutions. Today I’m talking with Arina de Vries from the practice Slaap Lekker. A true sleep psychologist who knows everything about the link between psychology and simply sleeping well, from baby to adult. 

Hi Arina. When I look at your CV, it’s really impressive. You’re a psychologist, EMDR therapist, somnologist, lecturer and sleep expert but I clearly see one theme: sleep. 

Yes, that’s right. I actually started out as a nurse, and I really noticed how important it is not only to focus on the body, but also on the brain and I also saw how important sleep is. I worked in mental health care for many years, and I discovered that for most things there’s one overarching theme: sleep. And when we stabilise sleep, the rest tends to follow. And then I thought: “Yes, I need to focus on that.” 

You then started the practice ‘Slaap Lekker’. What is the approach of your practice? 

Yes, we truly believe that the foundation lies in sleep. And when we see sleep improve, we also see mood improve, people experience less anxiety, they feel better in themselves, and we even see the whole family functioning better. And that is really what we strive for as a practice: to work on that and in that way have a much broader impact than if we were to focus on just one problem. 

As a family, you naturally go through many developmental stages, and it often starts with the birth of a baby. What does sleep look like for a baby, and can problems already show up then? 

Of course, for most parents it’s very enjoyable and exciting to have a baby. But at the same time you come home with a tiny, vulnerable baby who can’t sleep well yet. Babies aren’t able to sleep the way we do. They still have two sleep phases: active sleep and inactive sleep. And those alternate continuously. Babies are awake a lot at night. And that is, of course, a huge challenge for parents and for the child as well. 

How should you respond best as a parent? Because it’s quite an exhausting period. Is there a system or best practices for dealing with sleepless nights? 

What we know, at the very least, is that you also have to accept that this is development. And this really is brain development that we’re seeing. A baby has only two sleep phases: active sleep and passive sleep. And at some point that becomes more. Then you get light sleep, deep sleep, dream sleep, like we have. A sleep cycle also becomes longer. It starts at 30 to 40 minutes when they’re still very small, and it gradually becomes longer. Ours lasts about 90 minutes. At some point, you need to be able to link those cycles together, but for many children that’s still very difficult. They really wake up briefly after every sleep cycle. And then it’s very important that they also learn to fall asleep calmly and independently. That makes it much easier, when you wake up after a sleep cycle, to fall back asleep independently. 

You often hear: just let a baby cry for a while at night. Should you intervene immediately as a parent when you hear your baby crying? 

That’s a very good point, because what we actually know is that babies make a lot of noise while they sleep. They move much more than we do. Just like we can talk in our sleep, babies do that too. But they don’t talk yet, they cry. And crying and making noise can therefore also be part of sleep. So it’s really good to first listen carefully: “Hey, what am I actually hearing? Does my child truly need me, or is this simply part of sleep?” So I usually say: “Do it a bit like the French. Le pause.” So pause for 2 to 3 minutes before you respond. Then we see that parents can judge much better whether the child needs them at that moment, whether they truly need you, or whether they were just briefly looking for a new sleeping position or needed to move into the next sleep phase. 

There’s also a lot of discussion around baby sleep. Should a baby sleep alone, or is it okay for a baby to sleep in your bed? And can they sleep on a regular mattress, for example? 

What matters is that they sleep safely. Whether that is with the parents or not, parents can decide for themselves. But safe sleep does mean they sleep in a separate sleeping space. That could be a co-sleeper attached to the side of the bed, a crib in the bedroom, a travel cot, or a cot in the bedroom. But it’s very important that babies have their own little mattress, their own place to sleep.

And when can you say there is a sleep problem in a baby? And what are the most common sleep problems and causes?

Sleep can present as a problem in many different ways. What we see is that some children have a lot of trouble falling asleep. Some children wake up often at night. Other children wake up very early in the morning. And it’s always good to look at: “Okay, what’s happening at night? Where exactly is the problem?” And I also always want to know what exactly happens and what happens between parent and child, or what happens only in the child. It may be that a child finds it very difficult to fall asleep independently. Because of sleep associations, for example, they depend on feeding, rocking, or the presence of a parent. But it may also be that they’re still so “switched on” that they have had some deep sleep and then are wide awake at 2 or 3 a.m. Parents are exhausted and just want to sleep, and a child who is ready to go wants to start the day. That’s a very different kind of problem. So in one case it really has to do with a sleep association that is simply less helpful, and in the other we’re dealing with a child who can’t switch off properly from the day. The accelerator is still too much “on”, and sleep, the brake, isn’t adjusted well yet. So we see that the balance hasn’t quite been found. 

As a baby, you still have a lot of growing to do. What role does sleep play in the development of a newborn? 

Yes, sleep is truly the foundation. Especially in deep sleep, growth hormones are released. That’s the moment children grow, literally and figuratively. It’s also the moment the brain is “cleansed”. Waste products that build up during the day are cleared away. And it’s the moment when new connections are formed. All memories, all the new things you’ve learned, are either discarded or given a place in the brain during the night. It plays an incredibly important role across many domains of development. We all sleep about one third of our lives and babies about half of theirs. 

A baby then becomes a toddler and a preschooler. How does sleep evolve in that sense? 

What we see is that babies still need a lot of sleep. Logically, because they need to develop and grow. We also see that sleep needs gradually decrease. So as we get older, we need less sleep. That also has to do with the fact that we grow more, and at some point that becomes less necessary. In the first years, children also have a lot of deep sleep, the most important part of sleep. That’s when you grow and the brain is “cleansed”. We see that portion gradually decrease and that there is more REM sleep, dream sleep, which becomes more prominent. We do see changes there. In puberty, most people sleep in a way that’s similar to how they sleep as adults. But as you get older, we also see you may need slightly less sleep again. Adults tend to have more light sleep and less deep sleep. 

At a certain point, a child becomes more independent and starts to develop their own will. I wanted to stay up as late as possible as a child. So what is a healthy routine for a child’s bedtime? 

The most important thing is to look at what your child needs. One child truly needs to go to bed at 7 p.m., but another child doesn’t need that at all and can easily stay downstairs until 9 p.m. So first you want to look at: “How much sleep does my child need?” And only then do you look at how you can plan the evening so it fits what your child needs. One child really needs a lot of time to wind down and come back to themselves. Another child loves playing football outside for hours and then being called inside half an hour before bedtime for the bedtime routine and then going to sleep. So you really can look at what the child needs. If the child wakes up on their own in the morning, functions well, looks healthy, grows well, and is cheerful, then you can assume the child is getting enough sleep. 

You talk about “winding down” in children. What exactly do you mean by that, and how can a child wind down?

Sleeping and being awake are two opposite states. Sleeping is more like pressing the brake pedal, while being awake is more like the accelerator. Ideally, just like when I approach a crossroads, I gradually release the accelerator and press the brake. And when I drive off again, I release the brake and press the accelerator. We see the same principle with sleep. So what you want is for sleep to gradually build up, so the brake is pressed, while wakefulness and alertness are gradually reduced. We often see a problem arise here: the longer you’re awake and the more active you’ve been during the day, the more sleep pressure you build up, but at the same time you also need to get rid of your “wake substances”. So cortisol and adrenaline need to be able to decrease before you go to sleep. A common sleep problem is that many children go to bed while the accelerator is still fully pressed. It’s like pressing the gas and the brake at the same time. And that leads to sleep problems. 

And how can you release that accelerator? Are there techniques for that?

What’s very important is that children know what to expect during the day. So that the day is predictable, but especially that there’s enough time in the evening to be together with parents. Children simply need their parents; that’s a basic need. Spending time together to co-regulate, calm down, and have positive interactions is the foundation. In addition, we see that having a predictable bedtime routine is incredibly important. Completely underestimated, but truly essential. About 20 minutes: going to the bathroom, getting ready, putting on pyjamas, reading together, chatting, cuddling, and then going to sleep. And when this always happens in the same way, we see that a kind of connection forms in the brain, where even the first step already triggers a sleepy feeling. That makes it much easier to let go of the accelerator, because you know: “Oh yes, I can let go of the day now. I can surrender to the brake.” 

Children and teenagers mainly go to school, and a lot is expected of them there. When I look at school-aged children, they often look very tired. They come home in the evening and still have homework to do. Are we asking too much of our school-going youth?

Yes, it’s a bit of a double-edged story. What we see is that we all have a biological rhythm. Some people are more evening-oriented, others more morning-oriented. Most people fall somewhere in between. That biological rhythm determines when melatonin, one of the sleep hormones, is released. And therefore also when you’re able to sleep, concentrate well, function well, and feel hungry. In children, that rhythm is set very early. Young children often wake up around 6 a.m. and are wide awake. That’s perfectly fine. But during puberty, from around the age of 9, we already see a shift. Parents then say: “We’re doing everything right, but it still doesn’t work to fall asleep on time.” That’s because the biological rhythm is shifting. For some more than for others. But school still starts early in the morning. They have to get out of bed even if they only fell asleep at 11 or 12 at night. So they build up sleep debt. They have a sleep deficit, which they then compensate for on weekends by sleeping in. That’s what we call social jetlag, because you shift between a weekday rhythm and a weekend rhythm. We all know how unpleasant a jetlag feels, and we see that happening in teenagers as well. They have to function in a social rhythm that doesn’t match their biological rhythm at all. And yes, that really is a problem. 

We assume that children and teenagers can sleep normally, but sleep problems do occur. What are the most common sleep problems in children and adolescents?

We actually see that 30% of children without additional issues already experience sleep problems. And if we look at children with depression, anxiety, ADHD or autism, that number rises to around 70%. So it’s a very large group of children who struggle with this. The difference between sleep problems and many other problems is that parents are immediately affected as well. If your child doesn’t sleep, you don’t sleep either. What we often see is that many children find it very difficult to fall asleep independently. That can be related to anxiety: being afraid to go to sleep or to be alone upstairs. Anxiety is the opposite of sleep, because to surrender to sleep you need to feel relaxed and safe. Sleep is your most vulnerable moment, because you can’t monitor your environment. So if a child is more anxious, it’s very logical that they stay extra alert. That’s something we see a lot. Another issue we often see is that children haven’t properly switched off yet. The accelerator is still too much “on”, and the brake isn’t fully engaged. The shifted rhythm in teenagers is something they really can’t help, but it does make it very difficult for them to fall asleep. They struggle to wake up during the day as well. And that eventually leads to health problems, concentration issues, and can range from anxiety to even depression. There’s often a lot of focus on those outcomes, but still too little on sleep itself. Because when sleep improves, we often see that the rest improves as well. 

And what can we do to lower cortisol?

Lowering cortisol indeed starts during the day. That means deliberately planning enough moments in the morning, afternoon and evening when you experience rest and relaxation. There’s nothing wrong with having cortisol; those daytime peaks are actually perfectly normal. But there also need to be enough counterbalancing moments: reading a book, gazing out of the window for a moment, having a cup of tea, connecting with a friend. In short, activities that allow you to slow down and truly settle. 

And smartphones and social media are harmful in that respect.

No, they don’t really help with that at all. What does social media do? It activates you. Especially teenagers are highly focused on social connections, which is part of their developmental phase, so for them social media has an even stronger effect. While they’re using it, they constantly receive dopamine hits, which makes them even more activated. But when they put the phone away, fear of missing out kicks in. They start thinking: “What am I missing? What’s being said in the app right now? And what if I missed something? What does that mean when I show up at school tomorrow?” So they remain highly activated. And that’s not what you need when you want to go to sleep. To fall asleep, you need to be relaxed and reconnect with yourself, not with others. 

An important term we often hear is sleep hygiene and the importance of good sleep hygiene. Could you briefly explain what sleep hygiene means?

Sleep hygiene refers to the behaviour and habits you have before going to sleep, all aimed at supporting good sleep. To be honest, I find the term a bit awkward. It immediately makes you think of cleanliness, but it’s really more about working towards being able to sleep well. Sleep hygiene is about making sure you have a comfortable bed, that you’re warm, that the room around you is dark, that you feel safe, and that you’ve properly switched off from the day. That means no screens before bedtime, no caffeine close to bedtime, no alcohol, because it has a very negative impact on sleep quality. You optimise all the conditions so that good sleep can actually happen. 

Where do most problems occur: with falling asleep or staying asleep?

Most problems are related to falling asleep. That’s what I hear most often. Many people struggle to switch off their minds, to be able to surrender to sleep. And in a way, that’s still preferable, because if people at least have an undisturbed sleep once they do fall asleep, it may be shorter, but the quality can still be fairly good. With problems staying asleep, we often see that the body remains very active. When it comes to falling asleep, it’s more about mental activity, rumination, worrying and that kind of thing. In people who struggle mainly with staying asleep, who wake up fully alert at some point, we see that their body is still completely “on” during sleep. In that case, you want to focus much more on helping the body find relaxation. And in people who mainly have difficulty falling asleep, you want to work more on helping the mind find calm. 

And how do you find relaxation in your body?

This can be done, for example, through relaxation exercises, but it can also mean that you actually need to exercise more. If you’re not very aware of when you’re relaxed or tense, you first need to learn to recognise that before you can truly relax. Exercise is also a very effective way to activate the body for a moment, after which it becomes much easier to move into relaxation. 

At a certain point it becomes a problem. You’ve tried everything, and people tend to reach for medication quite quickly. Is that an issue?

Yes, that can be a problem. Medication can be very helpful, of course. And if it’s truly needed, for example because something very distressing has happened in someone’s life, then that’s completely fine. I always say: “Do this in consultation with your doctor.” However, sleep medication is quite intrusive, and we also see that it affects sleep quality. You may feel as though you’re sleeping better, but when we look at sleep quality, we see changes in deep sleep, REM sleep or light sleep. As a result, people often don’t feel well-rested during the day. They say: “Yes, I don’t have as many sleep problems anymore, but during the day I still feel really unwell.” That’s why we prefer to work with cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia. This is considered the gold standard, because scientific research shows that it’s an effective way to work towards sustainable, long-term improvement in sleep, unlike medication, which mainly offers a short-term solution. 

And what is cognitive behavioural therapy, explained very simply?

Cognitive behavioural therapy is done with a psychologist. Together, you look at different factors related to sleep. By cognition, we also mean thinking. And this is something we see very often. Someone may have had a few bad nights; that’s usually how it starts. No one develops a full sleep disorder overnight. It begins with a few poor nights of sleep. Then someone experiences a lot of anxiety and stress about it, which leads to even more poor nights. And then a pattern forms. Someone has another bad night and starts thinking: “How will tomorrow go? My presentation. I’ll never fall asleep. Will this ever get better?” That creates even more stress and activation, making sleep even worse. People then start compensating through behaviour: staying in bed longer, exercising less, spending more time on screens, consuming more caffeine, possibly using sleep medication or alcohol, and so on. All of this only makes sleep worse. You quickly end up in a vicious cycle. The goal is to avoid getting stuck in that cycle. So you look at how you can think differently, how you can organise your day and night differently, and how you can better manage your emotions. You work across different areas to help restore better sleep. 

Yes, part of that vicious cycle may be reinforced by all kinds of sleep apps, smartwatches and similar tools, because we tend to want to measure everything about our bodies.

There is even a term for this kind of behaviour, orthorexia, and yes, I wear a smartwatch myself, and I encounter this in my practice as well. Someone will say: “I sleep very badly, because my watch keeps telling me I’ve only slept well for 40%, or that I never have deep sleep, or that I don’t get any REM sleep.” Unfortunately, watches cannot measure this accurately. We simply don’t know exactly how the algorithms of different brands work. Moreover, if you really want to measure which sleep stage you’re in, you need an EEG. That means spending a night in a hospital with electrodes attached, measuring brain activity. Only based on that can we determine whether someone is in deep sleep or not. This is even combined with breathing measurements. And even then, it remains a complex puzzle to determine whether someone is in REM sleep, deep sleep or light sleep. So a watch cannot truly measure this. What is very useful, however, is looking at patterns such as: “Am I going to bed at consistent times? How long am I roughly in bed? Am I getting up on time? Am I getting enough physical activity during the day?” You can learn a lot from those measurements, and they can genuinely help you improve your sleep. 

So it can still be a useful starting point to ask yourself, ‘Where can I do better?’

Exactly. Some smartphones then suggest setting sleep times and wake-up times, which helps you create a rhythm. And rhythm is a very important concept. Rhythm is absolutely fundamental to sleep. When you maintain a consistent rhythm—eating, sleeping and moving at regular times—you’re already a long way towards better sleep. 

And what if I go out partying for a night?

Well, that’s completely normal too. Fortunately, our brains are incredibly smart machines. We have what’s called a sleep architecture. Our sleep consists of cycles with light sleep, deep sleep and dream sleep. As adults, we typically have about five of these cycles per night, each lasting around 90 minutes. Deep sleep is the most important phase, and it mainly occurs during the first three to five hours of the night. So if you’ve had a night of partying and therefore slept far too little, your brain will automatically compensate the next night by prioritising deep sleep. You’ll have very little REM sleep and very little light sleep. It essentially squeezes everything you need into the limited time available. That’s actually very clever. Our bodies adapt—we have a remarkably intelligent system. 

I’m personally a big fan of power naps. I enjoy taking a 20-minute nap in the afternoon. What does science say about that?

Science is actually a big fan of power naps as well. There was even a study conducted by NASA, involving astronauts, that looked into this. The results showed that power naps have many positive effects on attention, concentration and overall performance. For some people, however, power naps can contribute to sleep problems, because they slightly reduce sleep pressure needed to sleep well at night. But for most people, a power nap is actually a very good idea. As you mentioned, 20 minutes is excellent timing, because you wake up just before entering deep sleep. That way, you get the benefits without feeling groggy afterwards. It’s important not to nap too late in the day, as that can affect nighttime sleep. If you notice that your power nap negatively impacts your night’s sleep, then it’s no longer helpful and may actually work against you. 

So briefly closing your eyes in the evening while watching TV is not a good idea.

I wouldn’t recommend it, but if you generally sleep well, it’s not necessarily a problem. Still, it’s better to take a power nap around midday, or right after coming home from work if you’re really very sleepy. That’s perfectly fine—but preferably not on the couch in front of the TV. 

I sometimes hear people say that they sleep with socks on. I find that a bit strange—what do you think about that?

A very good idea. Sleeping with socks on is actually very beneficial for your sleep. When our feet are warm, our blood vessels dilate, which allows us to release heat more easily. Your body temperature needs to drop slightly in order to fall asleep properly. Sleeping with socks helps with that. In addition, socks prevent you from cooling down too much during the night, as they keep your feet warm enough and limit excessive heat loss. The media eagerly publishes all kinds of tips and problems related to sleep—there is a lot written about sleep. 

What are some of the big myths you often see in the media that you think aren’t entirely correct?

Yes, the biggest myth is probably that we all need eight hours of sleep. There is actually a very wide variation in how much sleep people need. For adults, it typically ranges between seven and nine hours, with an average of about seven and a half hours—so not even eight. When we consistently aim for eight or nine hours of sleep, it can actually have the opposite effect. Trying to sleep more than you truly need can reduce sleep quality: you wake up more often, experience more difficulty falling asleep, and spend more time in light sleep. As a result, you get less benefit from your sleep. So sleep according to what you need, and don’t cling to a magical number. 

Arina, we’ve learned an enormous amount today. It feels like we’ve received many valuable tips. If there is one crucial takeaway people should remember to sleep better, what would it be?

This may sound like a strange tip, but it’s actually better to sleep too little than to try to sleep too long. In treatment, for example, we often see that sleep restriction—spending significantly less time in bed than you normally would—is one of the most effective ways to improve sleep. This doesn’t have to be permanent, but you might start with six or seven hours of sleep, and only expand that once your sleep has clearly improved. So yes—better too short than too long. 

And if people want to find you online, where can they do so?

www.praktijkslaaplekker.nl. That’s where you’ll find my practice. You can learn much more about sleep there, and also sign up if you feel you need additional support. 

Thank you very much for this conversation—it was incredibly interesting.